Earlier in the year I had the great privilege to have a Skype conversation with renowned Design Management guru Professor Ralf Beuker. Ralf lives in Germany, blogs at Vol. 2: the design management weblog and can be found on Twitter @ iterations. His expertise is in Strategy Consulting, Design Management Research and understanding Technological Innovation. In what was a long interview (a big thanks to Ralf for his time and thorough preparation) Ralf shared his thoughts on various topics relating to the field of Design Management. (Also a quick note to Ralf – apologies for taking so long to publish this, it was a big interview to transcribe and write up). So below is the distilled down version of the interview. Thus without further ado, enjoy this fantastic interview.
Total Read time : 20mins.
Skim Read time (highlights, question 9 + bolded sections): 5mins.
Highlights
“Around this time I found a museum book store, in the design section a there was a book with the title (if you translate it loosely) ‘the silent designers, managers of design’. So I thought okay, that’s quite interesting – design management – design is something that interests me and management is something that I’ve learnt.”
“A lot of people disagree with this, especially when they come from the design thinking side. They think, no business has to learn from design. However if you think of the independent or freelance designer who really has to earn his or her money from design, then it’s fair to tell them you need to have a good understanding of how these managers and business people think because otherwise they will not understand you.”
“For designers it shouldn’t be about justifying design. I think designers should not justify something but explain.”
“So you really need to experience the sequence – You study something, you then go onto the street level and practice what you’ve learned, from there you learn this is something that interests me and this is something that does not interest me, or you discover gaps (for example you always come across the same problem – business does not understand what we are talking about) and then you have a concrete idea about what to expect from a Design Management program.“
1. Hi Ralf. Welcome to Design Droplets. Could you please give us a short run down on yourself.
It’s a pleasure that you have considered me as an interviewee on Design Droplets, as it seems you have a pretty nice group of interviewees so far. I did not study design, I studied business administration. I graduated in 1995 (14 years ago) from the German University. My first job after graduating was as a university teaching assistant for the Chair of Management of Innovation and Technology. We acted as a bridge between design, business administration and information science. The idea was to connect all three in a better way – because design, business and information sciences needed the tools, the means and understanding of how to bring ideas to market. So I’ve been working with this overlap in thinking from the beginning of my career.
2. You have been in occupying the intersection between Business and Design for quite a few years, How did you end up there?
Part of the responsibilities of a teaching assistant, at least in Germany (but I think for all universities), is you are supposed to write a doctoral thesis. So having my first job at the university, I was not too busy with finding a topic. Then I started thinking about it. My wife is a graphic designer, and I’m not only interested in her personally, but also in the work she does. I thought design is something I’m interested in. Around this time I found a museum book store, in the design section there was a book with the title (if you translate it loosely) ‘the silent designers, managers of design’. So I thought okay, that’s quite interesting – Design Management – design is something that interests me and management is something that I’ve learnt.
Design has always been something that was in my mind or in my soul, simply feeling attracted to beautiful things. I think that’s the common trigger for most of us. But approaching it from helping management to understand that it’s worth an investment to think about design, that you can make money with it, that was new at the time and in 1997 there were very few books about Design Management. Most books on the topic were being written by doctoral candidates in the marketing area, so design was seen purely as a means to market products better.
So eventually, my boss at this time (an American professor) he contacted the Design Management Institute. He was invited to give a lecture at the Second European Forum on Design Management in Amsterdam in 1998. So pretty fast we ended up at this conference giving a lecture and that was my beginning in the field of design management thinking. I have now been in design management for 10 years.
3. In the last few years there has been a lot of discussion about how Businesses can learn from, harness and benefit from Design. But what do you think Design can learn from Business?
Around 1998 Design Management was seen, and I will come back to this later on, as quite operational. The main idea of what Design Management was, was based around the question ‘how do we manage the design function in order to make it work well in a corporate context?’. People were interested in asking ‘where do we locate the design department if we are a bigger organisation or where do we bolt the designer onto our organisation?’ I think that’s still the case for most of the bigger organisations. Usually design is in either located with marketing or corporate communications.
So if it’s more graphic design oriented, you are dealing more with corporate communications or public relations. They need material to communicate the values of the company and what the company is doing. If it’s more product related, the organisation usually sits design in with the marketing department and from there they connect design to engineering.
This approach has it’s pros and cons which leads to your question “what do you think design can learn from business?”. Essentially for designers, communicating or integrating with business is still a very painful experience. Designers really need to learn, that usually, they do not have a choice about how they enter an organisation. The ideal scenario would be that the designer talks to the owner of the company, or a board member, and convinces him or her about the benefits of design. Thus making him or her passionate about it. From there, once you have commitment from the top level, then it’s command and order that gets it down into the organisation. In the end you might end up with marketing as well but you do not have to fight for your voice to be heard.
But that’s rarely the case. The usual case I see is that you have the people I have named earlier (marketing or corporate communications) that want to do something with design. In order to understand what kind of thinking is going on in this context I recommend Peter Gorb, who I learnt a lot from.
Peter Gorb is a veteran in Design Management and I highly recommend reading his work. Peter Gorb retired from academia a while ago, but he was the first one to introduce Design Management at the London Business School. His view is that “Of all the professions, designers have the potential to make the most valuable contribution to business success. Yet before they can do so designers must learn the management language and understand some controversial management views of design; for example, design is not creative and it must never be left to designers. Above all, designers need to be aware of some unique aspects of their contribution which add to the general profitability of business“.
A lot of people disagree with this, especially when they come from the design thinking side. They think, no business must learn from design. However if you think of the independent or freelance designer who really has to earn his or her money from design, then it’s fair to tell them you need to have a good understanding of how these managers and business people think because otherwise they will not understand you. Essentially it boils down to (even though designers are in need) the fact that a manager does not wake up in the morning and think I need a design manager to help me become more competitive. So design can end up being the lowest element. After the basic business needs are satisfied like where do I get my money from (financing), how do I manage the money, how do I get my stuff produced(the value chain thinking), I’m not saying that this is the right view – I’m simply giving you a picture of what the management view might be, one tiny element is design. If designers have at least thought about the business persons situation and view, it makes it easier for you to understand why, as a designer, you sometimes don’t get the too the high stakes table (the board room).
4. Design Management is a term that is used a lot to describe several different things, could you give us your definition of what Design Management is?
Managing Design and Design Management are two very opposite areas, but they translate very nicely between operational and corporate management.
If you have the management of the design function you are in the operational area. When it comes to Design Management, then you’re on the corporate end. With the CEO you don’t discuss the tiny things of why a nob or a display is placed here or there. With the CEO of a company you discuss why Apple is such a fantastic company and how you think, for example, this furniture manufacturer can become the Apple in their industry. You are designing management and giving him recommendations about which triggers or levers to pull in order to allow the company to become more competitive.
As the manager of a design department you are into the tiny details. Should the typeface look like that? Is the grid composed correctly? Why is the display placed here and not there? What is our visual brand language? Thus Design Management can have many forms spanning between operational and corporate, but I hope if you look at the above chart it will become more clear.
Design as Meaningful Interaction.
What designers must become aware of is that design has different functions, different meanings and different contexts for different people and organisations, that’s a very essential insight for designers be aware of. In our practice and research my colleagues and I have found that design can be perceived as communication, as process or as expression. Depending on what your counterpart in the organisation perceives design as, and which area they fit it into, the discussion can be significantly different.
For example, in the above chart, design as expression is the discussion about what the product means (my colleague Eric called it the mental layer), with a company like Apple or any other design icon – a design manager would discuss the mental layer – they would discuss the product meaning, the relation between the product and the brand and visual brand language. In contrast if you are on the very practical level, if it is company that wants to innovate by through function or form you are talking about design as the process. This is where you discuss what the product does, how the product is made and this is what we call the physical or the functional layer. So as a designer if you enter a context where design is perceived as process and you start the discussion about meaning, then you will have a problem, because you are talking a different language.
If you talk about corporate identity to an engineering driven designer, then you are talking like you are from another planet because he wants to get a different problem solved. He wants to know what is the products function is and how the product made.
The third layer is design as communication. And that is really where marketing steps in – so it’s the question of how does the product feel? How is the product perceived by the consumer? Again if marketing says we need to do something with our product line here, you could try and start the philosophical discussion about design, but that’s not what the marketing guy is interested in because he’s not empowered to discuss this question. The marketing guy is empowered to discuss creating marketing campaigns for that product or the repackaging of that product. So having the correct conversation with the correct person, in my experience, is extremely critical for designers engaging with organisations and business people.
I am often asked about the relationship between design management, design thinking, design leadership and design. The above chart on this is simply expressing that there is no either or, but that it is a continuum. I believe that design leadership is not limited to the very big companies – to the British Airways, the Qantas’ or these big corporate brands. It can start very small. If you have a very good design capability then you can engage with design leadership. Although Apple, with their iPod, have been design thinkers all along (their leaders such as Steve Jobs are design thinkers), they started with the design of the product, a really great product. I think there are a lot of cases out there, of companies starting with one single product and building up from there. The more successful product design is for a company, the more they build their design capability. Meaning the more likely it is for design to have an organisational impact, thus the more the organisation moves from the design of a product into design management and design thinking.
I see design thinking as the most abstract design discipline, however if done well it has got the highest organisational impact because it might turn around your company. It truly affects the discussions with the company leadership because you begin to ask question like, are you really sure this is the way you want to go with your products? Are you a computer manufacturer or are you into the entertainment industry? And asking these type questions is critical because it redefines the way you do things, what you do and what kind of products and services you offer. If Apple were still to perceive themselves as a hardware and computer manufacturer, they would never have been able to launch iTunes. Which is now the centre of their business model. Again, if you look at that above chart I hope it will become clearer, or not, but hopefully it will.
5. It seems that Designers often have issues engaging in straight forward discussion with business and business people. A few recent examples were featured on Design Sojourn ( http://www.designsojourn.com/bridging-the-language-gap-who-cares-about-my-design/ & http://www.designsojourn.com/question-of-the-week-my-non-designer-boss-thinks-i-suck/ ). How do you think these gaps between Business and Design can be bridged more effectively?
You ask a good question, and I like this post from Brian about bridging. I think ,and in a sense Brian confirms what I have just been talking about, that business is not really interested in these philosophical discussions of design. For business most of them do not have a clue about all the different sub-disciplines of design such as graphic, interaction, communication, product, engineering and so it goes on.
For them design is just how stuff looks or making things pretty. For Designers I think it’s not, and that’s what Brian’s thinking is about. For designers it shouldn’t be about justifying design. I think designers should not attempt to justify their decisions but explain. And I don’t know if I’ve translated too much from German to English here, but justifying for me means something you do in front of the court. You say I’m innocent, I’m innocent and these are the reasons why I’m innocent. In a sense, even if you’re not in the least guilty, then you put yourself into a defensive position and the other person in an attacking position. But by simply explaining what you are doing and saying to someone – listen, this is what I’m doing and this is the reasoning behind why I’m doing it this, is a neutral way. A way that can allow for a discussion to occur.
I think designers should more focus on explaining and not justifying. Being a father I have this same experience with children. Raising kids works much better if you explain things to them. Explaining to them why they are supposed to go to bed at 8 o’clock – because they need to go to school the next morning, they need to be fresh etc… is a better means than saying it’s bedtime now, period. Or justifying yourself by saying I am the parent here, I am your Father, I say you must go to bed. That’s always quite hard for a child to accept and by doing so I’m justifying, I’m not explaining. I think explaining is more open and even though this might be a philosophical answer, I think the gaps between design and business can be bridged better if there is about a dialogue. And I think that really leads into the next question…
6. You have lectured in Masters of Design Management and MBA Programmes in Germany and the UK. What do you believe the benefits of further education in business or design management are for designers?
I think that it’s that they become better at explaining what they are doing, explaining their contribution and opening up a dialogue between themselves and business people.
A program in business design or design management, I see as a natural extension to design. It’s similar to managers doing MBAs these days (I also teach classic MBAs). Their motivation for enrolling in such an MBA program is really that they’ve discovered a sort of limit within their skills and a limit in what they are able to achieve within an organisation. So they are looking for an upload of knowledge, an upload of tools and means so that they can become better managers.
6. 1 In terms of the students and the people you see coming into design management courses (post-graduate courses), do you find there are more designers than business focused people that are enrolling? or is it an equal mix?
It’s the ambition of all design management or business design programs to have managers subscribing to these programs. But having been in design management education for ten years I have learnt there are very few managers sitting in these programs and most of the students are designers. And a sense I think that’s okay. I mean ask yourself honestly, why would a manager focus on this niche? Because for him, as I explained early on, design or design management is a niche. For a manager, or someone who’s studied business administration, to make the link into design management and invest 20,000 Euros or $30,000 there must be some idealism at work or a deep passion for design. I think there is no natural reason for managers to go into design management, but on the other hand for designers to invest in a design management masters make sense because it helps them to bridge the gap. But that does not mean that there is no need for managers to subscribe to these programs. And I think what the Rotman Business School from Canada and Roger Martin are doing (I think that’s really great work), where they are looking at what can business learn from design, is very interesting and that it is view that is really challenging this convention.
7. A large part of design management is about processes and strategy. Do you think there needs to be more of an infusion of strategy into traditional design degrees?
I think strategy and strategic thinking are not limited to any discipline. As human beings we are strategic subjects because we always (I mean we can go now into psychology) seeking advantage individually and that all incorporates strategic thinking. Thinking about what do I invest my energies in? What do I get? What’s the deal here? What’s my advantage? What’s my disadvantage here? All that boils down to the most basic elements of strategy. I think for the same reasons management programs have elements of strategy and strategic management, design degrees should also have a flavour of it because it helps designers to put their work into context. Which as I said early on, it’s the context that you need to be aware of. And if this is your strategic capability (that you are the master of the context), then that’s an excellent learning for designers. If design graduates leave with the skill of being able to see how they fit into a context where design is seen more as a communication than expression, then this is a strategic skill and it helps. So, yes I think it is necessary.
8. Design Management, more often than not, exists in the post graduate realm. Do you think there is a need to introduce design management learning at a more fundamental level in undergraduate design degrees?
That is a very good question, very well asked and I must admit I do not have too much of experience in this area as design management in bachelor programs is more a UK phenomenon. The United Kingdom is considered more ahead of the times. They have bachelor degrees in Design Management, but I am still not sure if having Design Management at the bachelor level makes sense.
At my home university, where I’m a part time professor, here in Germany I mostly lecture to bachelor students. So these are still the undergraduates and they come with a very limited set of business insights – so you ask yourself so what shall I do there? Shall I make business for designers, which means I teach them a little bit of accounting, a little bit of marketing, a little bit of business development. Yes that might make sense, but on the other hand where do you want to start and where do you want to end? I mean you always have to make these trade offs, where you say these are the limits. This is a part of the lifelong learning process.
So design students (hopefully deliberately) decided that they wanted to learn design. If they wanted to go for management, business administration or the study of the universe that’s where they would have gone. So I’m not sure how beneficial it is to teach Design Management at the bachelor level. Lecturing at a program at a bachelors level in Switzerland last November also leaves me with mixed feelings. If you equip people who have not even practised design in real life with loads of design and business theory, they are ill equipped to utilise it. But it’s very hard to make them understand this explanation.
You need practical insight, you need practice and you need these ups and downs, you need these very desperate moments where you think oh my God I should have followed my parents advice. I should have applied for a job at a bank (maybe not such a good idea these days, but the dream of many parents for a long time is that their sons and daughters are working at a bank because that is a safe place to work). And you ask yourself so why did I engage with design where nobody understands me? (And you will experience this or you will have already experienced it). This leads to people who are regularly asking me ‘what should I do after I complete my masters or bachelor in design, should I subscribe to design management program?’ I usually say no. No don’t do it now. Work for 3, 4, 5 years and discover….
So you really need to experience the sequence – You study something, you then go onto the street level and practice what you’ve learned, from there you learn this is something that interests me and this is something that does not interest me, or you discover gaps (for example you always come across the same problem – business does not understand what we are talking about) and then you have a concrete idea about what to expect from a Design Management program. I think that’s the important thing.
You don’t know what you forgot at home unless you head down the road. So when you suddenly start to get thirsty out in the outback for the first time, you suddenly consider okay maybe an additional water bottle would have been a good idea. So the next time, you take an additional water bottle with you. A quote I love, that really illustrates this (I think it’s Samuel Beckertt) and sums this up very well is – “ever tried, ever failed, not matter, try again, fail again, fail better.”
If you discover what you are constantly failing at, then you discover a need. This is where you say ‘I want to go and do a masters degree’ because it either helps you to bridge your weaknesses or it helps you to discover a new area that is really interesting for you.
9. Have you got any suggestions for good books? Magazines or Websites Design Droplets readers should be reading?
Not necessarily in any order.
- Brand Driven Innovation (it’s a pdf you can download for free) – it’s a dissertation of a friend, a former student and now business partner of mine Erik Roscam Abbing. It’s about his research into how design and the brand can help you to come up with innovative ideas. It’s really cross-disciplinary thinking and Eric and I are now doing some quite exciting work with it.
- Design Management: Managing Design Strategy, Process and Implementation by Kathryn Best
. There have been quite a few books on design management, but I think her book is the best one as it gives you very good overview of in terms of the continuum that is there between operational and corporate design management. It uses a lot of illustrations and also pictures, which very few Design Management books have.
- The Reflective Practitioner: How Professionals Think In Action by Donald A. Schön
. This book doesn’t refer to design specifically, but to how we solve problems. It relates to my belief that design is problem solving that helps people, not only designers, to analyse their thinking in a better way.
- Opposable Mind: How Successful Leaders Win Through Integrative Thinking
, by Roger Martin (a new book by Roger is being released this year), is a very practical approach to design thinking in the business context. In my view he explains all the nuts and bolts behind design thinking.
- The Design Management Review (students you will have this in your library, hopefully), formerly The Design Management Journal. It’s published quarterly by The Design Management Institute. You will find a lot of articles from practitioners as well as academics – it’s a very good read.
- More in the direction of the overall practice of thinking is Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell. I think all books by Malcolm Gladwell are interesting. Outliers is about how the circumstances you are born into determine your success. So where is the link to design? I think that designers should make themselves aware of what kind of circumstances they are educated in and how they can leverage from this.
- Strategy Safari: A Guided Tour Through The Wilds of Strategic Management
by Henry Mintzberg.
- Last but not least, Open Business Models: How to Thrive in the New Innovation Landscape
, Henry William Chesbrough. I think it’s essential that designers understand what they are designing for and that this influences their design whether it be print, media or product design.
10. Again thank you for privileging us with the opportunity to hear your ideas and views. Any final thoughts or advice?
Essentially I enjoy doing what I do. Part of my success I owe to people who spent time with me, so I think in a sense it’s not always a tit for tat situation. I think that taking time to interact with others is like an investment. If you think I can be of any help or if you think you can connect me to someone in Australia and say “This Ralf is really great” – feel free to drop my name and my address, so that I find more opportunities to give my blessing.
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Wow, this rocks. I’ve been reading more about design management in the last couple years.
Thanks for sharing
Great interview.. insightful.. thanks!!
Hey Raph and Ralf,
Just wanted to let you know that this is an excellent, highly valuable interview. Thanks so much for sharing with us!
Cheers,
Drew